Meanwhile...: We’ve covered a large part of your body of work, now I want to focus a bit on your history.

Keith Giffen: [laughs] What history?

MW...: In the industry.

KG: In the industry? Uhhh...What do you want to know?

MW...: Well, let’s talk about how you got into comics.

KG: Oh, what a fubar that was. I got in by accident. I knew I wanted to draw comic books since I was eight years old which is why the fact that comics aren’t going to be around much longer drives me berserk. I always wanted to pattern my career after Curt Swan, you know? Goes through, does good work, retires.

I was working for Hoffman/Laroche as a hazardous material handler and I took a week vacation and figured on going up to the comic book companies. Then I figured, “I don’t want to go into New York and walk around and be cold.”

So I made a list of comic book companies in order of preference, and in the dead centre of the list was Atlas. Remember Atlas when it was publishing?

MW...: Yeah.

KG: So I figured I’d call them first. Don’t go for Marvel, don’t go for D.C., don’t go for Charlton, go for the middle. And I called and they were very excited about me bringing it in. They were very optimistic, “Oh yes, bring it in, absolutely. Blah, blah, blah, blah, by the way, we’re closing next week.” So I thought, “Okay, that’s good,” hung up and thought to myself, “Screw it. If I’m going to get turned down, I’m going to get turned down from the top".

So I called Marvel and the receptionist said, “Oh yes, well, bring your portfolio in and drop it off here and Johnny Romita will take a look at it and you can pick it up the next day.” Just like that, you know? No hope at all.

I was stupid enough to go in and do it. I go in with my portfolio and drop it off at the receptionists desk and amble away.

The next day, I pick up the phone to call and I thought, “Okay, maybe I shouldn’t.” And by late that afternoon, I figured maybe I should. I call and the receptionist goes, “Um, yeah it’s in with Johnny. You could pick it up tomorrow. Bye.” Again, just that real encouragement that you need.

MW...: [laughs]

KG: I go in the next day - I was going to call first, but I figured I’m going to go in, she said, “go in” - and I walk in the door and she starts yelling at me. I mean, really yelling at me. Ranting, howling, the word ‘incompetent’ is being thrown around.

It turns out, they kind of liked my stuff. Bill Mantlo had been in there who had just lost Ed Hannigan on a back-up feature called “The Sword and the Star” and liked my stuff enough - right place, right time, right? Need a penciller and this guy’s competent - which I wasn’t, by the way, but thank you Bill for thinking so.

Well, I’m such a professional that I drop off my portfolio with my name on it, no address, no phone number - no way to get a hold of me. And it turns out that just after called the day before, they were screaming to get me in there. So I was literally ‘whirlwinded’ into Johnny Romita’s office wherein a script was thrown at me and that’s how I broke in.

Right place, right time, done wrong.

I spent the next year fucking up every assignment I got. [Because of] Gerry Conway, who was up at Marvel, went to D.C. and brought me along, I had the opportunity to work with people like Wally Wood, bob Kannagher, Murray Boltinoff and didn’t appreciate it at all. I was king of the assholes and I blew myself out of the business. Went down to South Jersey, sold vacuum cleaners door-to-door, repossessed things - a bunch of grunge jobs until I came back up to North Jersey and [was] still jerking around with menial jobs until my girlfriend at the time, who is now my wife, I had been seeing her for six months, and after six months she saw me doodling and said, “You can draw?” What an idiot I was. I’m going out with a girl for six months, she has no idea I can draw. No idea. She’s the one who said, “Why don’t you just call them?” I said, “No, no, you don’t understand. I screwed myself up bad”. She goes, “Well, you just sort of snuck away, didn’t you?” and I said, “Yeah”. She said, “Then don’t you owe them the opportunity to hang up on you?”

MW...: [laughs]

KG: I said, “Well, okay.” So I called and like I said earlier, Joe invited me in and put me on probation. Surprised the shit out of me. And I did it right. A few hills and valleys along the way, but overall, I can’t complain that much.

MW...: What would you consider your big break?

KG: My big break? Getting the LEGION the first time around. getting the LEGION just as Paul was ready to do “The Great Darkness”. That put me on the map. Everything else was just brute work, but I think getting the LEGION at that one, particular moment. Being given that second chance? That was the big break.

MW...: Who would you say are your influences?

KG: Jack Kirby, Jim Steranko, Barry Smith back when he was doing the weird Kirby stuff, Jose Munoz - boy did I suffer for that one.

MW...: Was that the COMICS JOURNAL swipe file thing?

KG: Yes. You know what the funny thing is? I didn’t even know the name of the book. I had gotten Xeroxes from a buddy of mine, he said, “This’ll fry your mind.”

Well, it fried my mind alright because I spent about a month where I couldn’t work I was so blown away by the guys stuff. I studied it, and I parroted it. Am I guilty of the crime? Yes. Am I guilty of the motives that were attributed to me? No, because doing the Munoz oriented artwork almost killed my career. Did I sit down and do a direct swipe from this guy? No I did not. Did I parrot it on the paper? Yes. Yes I did.

That’s that one in a nutshell. But I will never regret discovering that man.

Those are the main ones. You know, Kirby, Steranko, early Barry Smith, Munoz...Toth is another one.

MW...: Who are your favourite people, within the industry, to work with?

KG: Well, the people I’ve worked with are my favourites. Bob Fleming, Alan Grant, Eric Stephenson - those would be the writers. I’m sure I’m leaving some people’s names off the list, I’m just giving you the ones that surface.

In terms of artists, Mike McKone, Matt Haley - a vastly underrated talent - Ron Wagner, of course. I’d work with Ron tomorrow if I had the opportunity.

You could put Tom and Mary Bierbaum under writers too, because they are two of the most underrated writers currently working in comics.

MW...: What happened to Ron Wagner on BOOK OF FATE? Did you guys know it was being cancelled and he jumped ship for GENESIS, or was there something else happening there?

KG: He was offered GENESIS, and considering the state of the industry, GENESIS was a chance to work on a high-profile book. You know, FATE was kind of a lower level book. It was also a chance for a book that might generate some royalties, to play around in the D.C. Universe proper. And as he was waffling about it, I was very adamant about yelling, “Take it, take it, take it! Don’t be an asshole.” It just really came down to what it turned out not to be, but this should be good for you.

I still stay in touch with Ron. I still stay in touch with a lot of people.

You know, I’m one of Rob Liefeld’s biggest backers in this business. Rob is not a punk. No, he’s not a crazy man. No, he is none of the above. Yes, everyone’s got nightmare stories about everyone else. I could tell you nightmare stories about some of those ‘pleasant’ people in the business, but Rob has never, ever, ever, ever done me wrong in any way, shape or form. As a matter of fact, he’s been there when I needed him most.

I did the SUPREME Annual for him and I found out that the characters I had created had been copyrighted and trademarked in my name. I found out when somebody pointed it out to me in the indicia. Rob just considered that the right thing to do. He didn’t even consider it something to call me and get bragging rights on. My experience with Rob Liefeld has been that he is much maligned, and it is just undeserved. If Rob calls, I go.

I’m probably going to be working with him on a project in the near future.

MW...: Interesting.

KG: Yeah. I’m sure there are people out there that think Julie Schwartz is the anti-Christ, but Julie Schwartz is just somebody who I can never say no to. I’m sure there are a lot of people out there that think I am scum of the earth - well, okay, they’ve got a point - but it comes down to perception.

MW...: [laughs] You also have to take into account that what the fans hear is basically whatever the industry or the fan press tells them.

KG: Yeah. You know, if you don’t like the way Rob Liefeld does comic books, don’t buy Rob Liefeld comic books. If you don’t like the way I do a comic book, don’t buy my comic book. You vote with your dollar. That’s the only power base you have.

But if I had been chosen by a company to take over THOR and you hate my guts, stop buying THOR. Because if you keep on buying it with that wacky completist mentality, the sales figures are going to warrant my continued presence on the book. You’re defeating yourself.

My favourite piece of criticism from a fan was, “Break Keith Giffen’s fingers, and break his toes because that guy in MY LEFT FOOT learned to paint with his toes.”

MW...: [laughs] You must get the most interesting fan mail.

KG: Oh yeah. I’ve been perceived as being anti-fan when I’ve always tried to make my books as reader-friendly as possible, whenever possible - it’s not always possible.

MW...: ‘Bite Me Fanboy’ probably has a lot to do with that.

KG: So, I came up with ‘Bite Me Fanboy’. I didn’t come up with ‘Fanboy’, but it’s like, if I really felt that way, I don’t think I would have put it out there, you know?

I’ve always maintained that the comic book readership is a hell of a lot smarter than the comic book companies give them credit for. I kept telling Dave Elliot that our slogan for Blackball Comics should’ve been, “Blackball Comics - Because you’re not as stupid as they think you are”. I think they’re pretty sharp. I think, for the most part, comic book fans are pretty sharp. They can get the joke. And the small handful that don’t, well, to hell with them. They’re not the audience I’m shooting for.

I know a lot of it has to do with the fact that I won’t go to conventions, and I don’t like doing that kind of rah-rah, sis-boom-bah stuff, but I kind of would like the work to stand on it’s own. And if I’m at a convention, I’m not doing the book. So I’m at a convention, wasting time promoting a book that I’m going to make late by not being at home working on it.

MW...: You also don’t do many interviews.

KG: No I don’t.

MW...: Is that a personal choice?

KG: Yeah. I bore easy, and that applies to me. Few and far between, that usually works.

MW...: There is only so much a person can say, too.

KG: There is. Once you’ve run through your stuff, that’s it. You’ve done your riff.

I’ve been to conventions, I’ve sat on panels. It’s like sitting there drinking with your friends. There’s a point where you know somebody’s crossed the line, right? You suddenly realise, “Uh-oh, we’ve crossed that line. We’ve gotten into dirt dull.” At which point I just want to get up and leave. Then I start bristling, getting a little hostile, so I guess people think, “Well, he doesn’t want to be there.” Well, yeah. After a certain point, I don’t. And if they were honest, neither do they.

MW...: I think there’s a certain perception among many fans that they sort of ‘own’ the creators to an extent.

KG: I don’t know about that. Fans invest a lot in the individual character if they’ve been following the character a long time. The creator comes on and commits to doing a book [and] they get used to that creator’s presence. They pick up the book [and] they know pretty much what to expect. When the guy leaves, there is that feeling of abandonment or betrayal. It’s the most natural thing in the world.

The guy that comes on and then off and then on again - you know, a book that rotates creative teams - usually dies for that reason. Because there’s no sense of familiarity. And I’m not talking familiarity in that I know what the book is going to be about, but you know you’re going to get a certain level of craft out of the people doing the book. You know that the book’s going to maintain a certain ambience. So yeah, the changing of creative teams is always an odd time.

As for the creators themselves, I don’t think the fans - the hardcore fans, I’m talking now - feel that they’ve got any kind of right to dictate to the creators, but they do seem to feel that they have a right to dictate to the editors and the company. A lot of complaints will be filed which is...It’s pretty much always been like that.

Look at this whole Hal Jordan/Kyle Whatever the hell his name is thing. The bring back Hal movement that’s swept through fandom. I’ve got to give Kevin Dooley a lot of credit. He held fast.

MW...: He’s really stuck by his guns.

KG: Yeah. Kyle is Green Lantern now, deal with it.

But there’s a lot of other people in the comic book business who are allowing the fans to drive the product. They’re deliberately skewing their books to the hardcore fan base which is rapidly dwindling - let’s face it, we’re all getting old. Our hardcore fan base is starting to die of old age. There’s very little attention being paid to finding ways of bringing in the younger readers, and I think that’s wrong. I think that that is dead...on...wrong. I listen to the fans, I’ll read the mail, I’ll gauge the reaction, but I will not write the book to the fans demands. I will not tell the stories to the fans demands. That’s not going to happen.

MW...: How much of making comics is actually craft or art, and how much of it is marketing?

KG: Well, it’s all got to be craft and “art”. There’s a certain amount of craft that good comics have - telling the story, leading the eye and laying out the page. Knowing that there are five fingers on both hands, not just one. Knowing the basics. Being able to put a little bit of a visual spin on it. Once the comic book is completed, then it’s completely marketing, so your answer is both. It’s just in different stages.

When marketing starts dictating into the creative aspect of the comic, which is happening every so often, then it’s disastrous. It’s absolutely disastrous.

MW...: Throughout your career, both pre and post CRISIS, I think you’ve pretty much done everybody...

KG: Not everybody. At D.C., yes. I’ve pretty much pissed in everyone’s pond at D.C..

MW...: Are there any characters that you haven’t done that you’d like to?

KG: Uh, yes. My great unfulfilled comic book ambition right now is Captain America.


MW...: Well, you did do a Captain America piece for Marvel’s ‘Times Past’ thing, didn’t you?

KG: I was going to do a ‘Times Past’ but it flamed out under the new regime. I was going to retell the Sleeper story, but that went away.

Captain America, I’d love to get my hands on. Fantastic Four, I’d love to draw the Fantastic Four. I’d like to have a competent writer on it. I think those are the only two, really, that if they called, I’d go. Immediately.

MW...: Do you have any particular technique to your work?

KG: No, I just get up and do it. I start in the upper left hand corner, end in the lower right hand corner and I’m glad that I got something done. I wish I had some trick of the trade or some specific method, but it’s all seat-of-the-pants.

When I set up to do a comic book story, I start at page on and it magically ends on page twenty-two and I don’t want to fuck with it. [laughs] You know? It worked!

If I do an annual it ends on page forty-four or sixty-four. If it’s a short story it ends on page eight. I never outline or think ahead, I just do the story. I don’t know how it happens, I don’t know why it happens. I did the TRENCHER screenplay, it ended on page 120. Bang!

I don’t know how it happens, and again, I’m not going to go in there and start pulling it apart because I know I’ll never ever, ever get it back together again. Ever.

I got a knack, let’s put it that way. I got a knack.

MW...: Do you have a favourite story of yours or someone else’s?

KG: My favourite story of mine...[long pause]...Yes, the Generic Man story of THE HECKLER.

MW...: Number two.

KG: Number two. I think that’s where everything just sort of fell together, although I have to admit that the Generic Man is my favourite story because I look at it and say, “Oh, I had so much to do with this.”

Probably the best story I’ve ever been involved with is “Moving Day” in the JUSTICE LEAGUE. And the story where I think every single element fell together to make a damn good story was “Justice League Antarctica” in the JUSTICE LEAGUE annual.

MW...: With Mike McKone doing the art.

KG: Yes, with Mike McKone doing the art.

I’m not even going to be cornball about it and say, “My favourite story is probably the next one that I’m doing.” No, I’ll probably hate it, you know? I’ve got stuff that I’ve done that I really, really like, and as most people go, “I’d like to think my best work is still ahead of me,” I don’t know about that. I don’t know that for a fact.

Tomorrow I could wake up and I might turn this whole Spider-Man job into just one big pile of crap. Or I might do a job that could earn me other cracks at Marvel characters. You never know.

MW...: So what is the best part of your job?

KG: [sighs]

MW...: The traditional answer, of course, being “Not having a real job”.

KG: It’s a real job. I’ve got bills to pay, I put in my time. I put in my hours. People who don’t think it’s a real job should get the fuck out of the business.

It’s a job I like. I’ll give it that much. I like the job - or I liked the job before things got weird around me. The actual art, the actual sitting down and doing the comic I love, all the crap around it I’ve grown to dislike somewhat.

I guess my favourite part of the job is just being able to pop it out of your head and put it on the page. There’s nothing I like better than coming up with something and playing with it. See if you could create a world or a character.

MW...: Seeing a vision being realised?

KG: Yeah. I think if I lived in the middle-ages I’d be a minstrel. Not a good one - I’m tone deaf - but a minstrel. I like telling stories.

MW...: And what do you consider the worst part of your job?

KG: [sighs - long pause] Worst part of the job? Lately, feeling like I’m working into a vacuum.

MW...: Because of the state of the market?

KG: Because of the market, because of the shrinking audience, because it’s just not getting there. Other than that, I would say dealing with the advent of editor as creative force has been kind of rough.

But I’ve had a hell of a lot better time in comics than a lot of people I could name. So it all comes down to, “Yeah, you know what? I guess I really would go back and do it all again just the same, stupid, bull-headed way.” Knowing damn well that it would end up the same way? Yeah, I really think I would because there were times there that were just...I had eleven spectacular years at D.C., and no matter how bad the market gets, I still have them. Ha-ha, can’t go back. Can’t redo it.

MW...: Well, that seems like a pretty good place to end.

KG: I think so.

MW...: Thank you very much for the chat, it was a lot of fun.